For over 30 years, scientists have been trying to manipulate gravity with superconductors. Gary Stephenson discusses Ning Li, Eugene Podkletnov, NASA, and key moments in the history of superconductors & gravity control. The conversation centers around the work of several key figures, the community that formed around them, important experiments and publications (like Li’s Taming Gravity and Podkletnov’s Wired article), and the media attention surrounding their claims.

Stephenson discusses a number of key experimental approaches, including rotating superconductors, impulse generators, and high-frequency gravitational wave proposals, along with the challenges of replication and the role of organizations like NASA and the Jason Defense Science Advisory Panel in shaping the field. The discussion also details the history of several conferences dedicated to this research, including the significance of the 2003 MITRE HFGW Conference.

While some experiments showed promising initial results, many replication attempts yielded null results, leading to ongoing debate and the need for further research. The episode concludes with a recognition of the extensive work done over decades by numerous researchers and a promise to discuss Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAPs) in a future segment.

The Pioneers: Ning Li, Eugene Podkletnov, and the Media Frenzy

Our story begins with Drs. Ning Li and Eugene Podkletnov, two researchers whose work, independently conducted, ignited a media firestorm in the mid-1990s. Li’s research, initially published “Effects of a Gravitomagnetic Field on Pure Superconductors” back in 1991, focused on leveraging the properties of superconductors to influence gravitational fields.

Simultaneously, Podkletnov’s experiments, involving rotating superconductors, claimed to demonstrate gravitational shielding.  When Podkletnov attempted a 1996 peer review paper on his experiment in Physics Review-D, it was leaked to the press, leading to a retraction of the paper, and a flurry of press coverage that catapulted Podkletnov to fame in “Breaking The Law of Gravity” Wired (Wired, 1998) and later Ning Li in “Taming Gravity” (Popular Mechanics, 2000). While both researchers claimed measurable changes in gravitational force, their work was largely unknown to each other.

The NASA Connection and the Role of Ron Koczor

The podcast reveals a surprising connection to NASA. Ron Koczor, a program manager for a clandestine anti-gravity program within NASA, played a pivotal role in funding Li’s research. Stevenson recounts learning about this program through a colleague and subsequently contacting Koczor to learn more, highlighting the level of interest and investment in this field within government agencies. However, the podcast also notes that NASA’s attempts to replicate Podkletnov’s results, as stated by Glen “Tony” Robertson, were unsuccessful, largely due to difficulties in replicating the precise experimental conditions.

A Community Emerges: The MITRE HFGW Conferences

The discussion highlights the importance of the 2003 MITRE High-Frequency Gravitational Wave (HFGW) conference in McLean, Virginia, as a pivotal moment in bringing together researchers from across the globe. This conference, co-chaired by Paul Murad and Dr. Robert Baker, Jr., fostered collaboration and marked a turning point in the field. Subsequent conferences, including those in China and other locations, continued this collaborative spirit.

By the mid-2000s, dozens of scientists were publishing on superconductors and gravity, and sharing their research at conferences the 2005-2007 ISNPS STAIF Conference, the 2008-2011 SPECIF Conference, and the 2007 HFGW Conference at EarthTech International, and the 2017 Third International High Frequency Gravitational Wave (HFGW) workshop Chengdu, China.

Further Research & New Experiments

In the 2000s, new experiments emerged  Dr. Eugene Podkletnov went on to publish a new experiment about a gravitational impulse generator capable of “crushing brick and warping 1-inch thick steel” with Dr. Giovanni Modanese, the NASA team with Glen “Tony” Robertson and Ron Koczor got involved with superconductor materials engineering, and Dr. Ning Li left the University of Alabama to work on superconductor gravity research full-time at Redstone Arsenal. Dr. Fangyu Li and a team of Chinese scientists began working on gravitational wave detectors, and French innovator Claude Poher claimed to have a successful replication of Podkletnov’s “force beam generator” ready for commercialization.

Challenges, Setbacks, and the JASON Defense Science Advisory Panel

The path to understanding gravity modification has not been without its obstacles. The podcast discusses the impact of the JASON Defense Science Advisory Panel’s 2008 report, which dismissed the potential of high-frequency gravitational waves as a national security threat. While the panel acknowledged the scientific merit of the research, they deemed the effects too weak to be practically useful. This report, however, had a significant chilling effect on funding and research efforts.

Ongoing Research and Future Directions

Despite setbacks, research continues. Stephenson discusses the contemporary work of various researchers, including Amy Eskridge, Claude Poer, and Mark Sokol, each contributing to the ongoing exploration of gravity modification through superconductors. In 2025, nearly 30 years after the publication of Ning Li’s first paper on the topic, former NASA superconductor specialist Glen “Tony” Robertson is beginning work on a new replication attempt – with the benefit of 30 years of theory and a team of volunteers to collaborate with.

Conclusion: A Story Still Unfolding

The history of superconductor-based gravity modification is a complex tapestry woven from breakthroughs, setbacks, media hype, and government secrecy. This interview  provides a valuable glimpse into this fascinating field, highlighting the dedication of numerous researchers and the challenges inherent in exploring the frontiers of physics.

What’s the key takeaway? For over 30 years, dozens of PhD physicists and engineers believed that Type-II YBCO Superconductors could be used to control gravity, and published dozens of papers theorizing mechanisms for it. Ultimately, Drs Eugene Podkletnov and Ning Li both claimed experimental success. Dr. Martin Tajmar attempted a replication with negative results; Claude Poher attempted a replication and claimed positive results. NASA, it turns out, never completed their replication attempt at all, despite rumors to the contrary. The story is far from over, and future research promises to shed further light on the potential of manipulating gravity.